Sunday, August 20, 2017

Local officials differ on whether St. Augustine’s Confederate memorials should be kept

I oppose misguided efforts to remove two elegant obelisks or cenotaphs -- monuments to deceased local residents who served in the Civil War. One is the burial site of General William Loring, recommended by General William Tecumseh Sherman to work for the Khedive of Egypt, who personally toured President and former Union General U.S. Grant around Egypt.  There is no moral equivalence to offensive statues elsewhere.  Removal of General Loring's grave without legal approval would be a third degree felony under Florida law.   We must practice addition, not subtraction.  We're all in this together.  In our diversity is our strength.


Posted May 27, 2017 02:23 am - Updated August 18, 2017 05:54 pm
By SHELDON GARDNER sheldon.gardner@staugustine.com
Local officials differ on whether St. Augustine’s Confederate memorials should be kept



PETER.WILLOTT@STAUGUSTINE.COM A memorial to Confederate General William Wing Loring sits on the Plaza de la Constitucion in St. Augustine between Government House and Flagler College. Loring’s ashes are buried under the monument.

William W. Loring

Two Confederate monuments stand in St. Augustine’s Plaza de la Constitucion, sharing space with memorials to civil rights activists.

The Confederate monument on the east side of the plaza, the city’s main public space, honors men who died “serving the Confederate states.” A memorial with an image of the Confederate flag near the west end of the plaza honors Confederate Gen. William Loring and his service in the Civil War and other conflicts. His ashes are buried in the area.

Local governments in places such as New Orleans have removed, or talked about removing, Confederate monuments from public spaces. The leader of the local branch of the NAACP, the nation’s oldest civil rights organization, is in favor of removing the monuments in St. Augustine.

“What it symbolizes goes way back to African-Americans being held as slaves. … Something that has such a strong meaning behind it … should not be in a public space,” said the Rev. Margaret Rickerson, president of the branch.

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But the leader of the Sons of Confederate Veterans in St. Augustine offered a different perspective.

“You don’t want to try to change history and these monuments are not offensive,” said Jim Kimbrough, commander of the local branch, which is named after Loring.

Loring was raised in St. Augustine, and he was a veteran of the Seminole and Mexican wars as well as the Civil War. Kimbrough said the Confederate monument honors town men who were part of a militia that gathered before the Civil War, but went on to fight for the South.

“A subtle statue that represents militia prior to the Civil War should be left alone,” Kimbrough said.

Initially, the Confederate monument wasn’t welcome in the plaza.

The Ladies Memorial Association of St. Augustine, founded shortly after the end of the Civil War, raised funds to build a memorial for Confederate soldiers from the area who died, according to a history of the site by Herbert Greenleaf that Kimbrough’s group distributes.

The city’s military governor didn’t want it placed on city ground and “the city council refused the land necessary for the placing of the monument in the ‘Plaza,’” according to Greenleaf. A local bishop allowed the monument to be built on church property on St. George Street and the monument was rebuilt in the plaza after control of city government changed hands. The city of St. Augustine controls the eastern side of the plaza where the Confederate monument is, but the western part of the plaza is under management by the University of Florida.

While there hasn’t been discussion on what to do with St. Augustine’s monuments, City Manager John Regan said he’s been paying close attention to what’s happening in New Orleans and the national trend. He said while he’s not sure how people perceive the monuments in the plaza, “No one in the city condones anything associated with slavery or treating people differently.”

Mayor Nancy Shaver said she hasn’t received any comments from people about removing the monuments and she doesn’t have a position on whether they should be removed.

“I think in many ways that has to do with the sensibilities and the feelings of the people within the city,” Shaver said.


39 Comments

Patricia Ortagus
It is all history let it be
LikeReply4Aug 16, 2017 3:03pm
Dorothy Jean Duddy · 
Please don't rewrite history
LikeReply2Aug 16, 2017 3:37pm
Rosalie Soulis · 
Works at Self-Employed
Maybe I just really simple minded because I don't see slavery or hate when I see The Confederate Flag or the Monments, I see a deep rooted way of life built on Christean belifes. maybe it is just me, IDK!!!
LikeReply5Aug 16, 2017 5:01pm
Matt Armstrong · 
"the western part of the plaza is under management by the University of Florida" - this is false. The plaza ends at St. George Street. Post Office Park, to the west of Government House, is managed by UF but it is not part of the Plaza de la Constitución.
LikeReply1Aug 16, 2017 5:03pm
Sheldon Gardner
Hi Matt,

While, as I understand it, that area wasn’t part of the original Plaza de La Constitucion, it’s still referred to as the plaza in City Code (http://bit.ly/2wpDfgJ ) and also in the Florida Master Site File that describes the Loring memorial.

Best wishes,

Sheldon
LikeReplyAug 18, 2017 7:30pm
Adam McAlmont · 
You may be historically correct Matt, but City ordances describe it as part of the Plaza de la Constiucion. "West Plaza means the Plaza de la Constitucion west of St. George Street, as represented on District No. 5, Official Map of the City of St. Augustine, adopted June 12, 1923, by Ordinance No. 164 and the rights-of-way and sidewalks located around the perimeter…" Sec. 22-14
LikeReplyAug 19, 2017 9:01am
Adam McAlmont · 
Here is a link that shows the 1923 map with the main plaza and west plaza marked as one plaza. http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00014709/00001/6x
LikeReplyAug 19, 2017 9:05am
Dawn Masters · 
I will chain myself to our monuments. Leave them where they are.
LikeReply7Aug 16, 2017 5:15pm
Tom Reynolds · 
......................TEAR Down EVERYONE OF THEM DOWN ! .......................

............And REPLACE THEM WITH A STATUE OF ME ! ............................

I AM GORGEOUS ...... I AM THE MAN ....... I AM LOVED by EVERYONE.....

........................................ I LOVE EVERYONE ..............................................

PEOPLE WILL COME FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD TO HAVE A PHOTO TAKEN of THEMSELVES WITH MY STATUE !
LikeReply2Aug 16, 2017 7:08pmEdited
Carl Claypool · 
Mark your opinion doesn't matter you're a transplant
LikeReplyAug 18, 2017 9:31pm
Tom Reynolds · 
Carl Claypool my family goes all the way back to the minutemen. That American flag is because of my family. SO Carl, enjoy your freedom from British Rule because of my BLOOD!
LikeReply1Aug 19, 2017 3:48am
Peggy Hatton · 
I think it's the perfect balance of history. It shows how things have changed. Leave it alone....please! In fact, it's a model for the rest of the county. Instead of tearing down statues, put up newer, bigger ones of the post slavery era.
LikeReply5Aug 18, 2017 8:11pm
Lisa Parrish Lloyd · 
We do have some moving testements to post-slavery, humanitarian resistance to racism. But revereing a seemingly arbitrary monument to Loring, who is unsubstantial in our city's history, seems wrong when it was prob intented to put black Americans "in their place"
LikeReply114 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
Lisa Parrish Lloyd William Wing Loring moved here at age 4. He practiced law here. He was in the National Guard here. He was elected a state legislator in Florida (after first going to Georgetown and learning the law under Florida territorial delegate to Congress David Levy Yulee).
General Loring is buried here, under the monument in Loring Park.
An admiring Union General William Tecumseh Sherman recommended General Loring to Egypt, which hired him as a general for ten years. He toured President U.S. Grant, a former Union General, around Egypt. After General Loring died in NYC, both former Union and Confederate soldiers honored his memory at his funeral.
This is his burial place, legally protected under Florida law -- moving his ashes or monument would be a third degree felony.
Why is this an issue?
LikeReply5 minsEdited
David Cash
The monuments represent the fallen soldiers who fought in the civil war. They are a part of our history and should be left in p!ace. St Augustine s claim to fame is its history. We cannot selectively choose to erase it.
LikeReply7Aug 18, 2017 11:27pm
Victoria Gruber · 
they represent the soldiers who fought for slavery.. this history should be remebered in a textbook not up on a pedastal
LikeReply111 hrs
David Cash
Soldiers can't determine what ideology they fight for. They follow orders. If you remove one side you have to remove the other. It takes it all out of context. We cant pick and choose our history.
LikeReply59 mins
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
I agree.
LikeReply5 mins
Rick Ambrose · 
Should we tear down the Menendea and Ponce de Leon statues because of the terrible atrocities and death put upon the Native Americans by the Spanish? Where does this end?
LikeReply5Aug 19, 2017 9:20am
Lisa Parrish Lloyd · 
Good question. But it relates to conquest, which is never pretty. Confederate monuments specifically relate to an effort to sunder our (own) country in half, expilicitly for the perpetrating crimes against humanity - slavery! Basically treason for the purpose of maintaining a selfish way of life based on treating human beings as subhuman
LikeReply114 hrs
Michael E Stover · 
I've lived here my entire life and could not tell you the location of it in the plaza. Race baiting by the distinguished reverend. Be careful folks this thing is not headed in a good direction. How bout we do what is usually done and get the signatures required to put it on a ballot, if the reverend can achieve that we'll have a vote, majority wins. What the hell happened to that?
LikeReply1Aug 19, 2017 11:59am
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
Third degree felony to disturb General Loring's grave and monument. Why is this an issue?
LikeReply4 mins
Will Duer · 
I notice that comments from the sister article regarding this issue are no longer visible. Why is that?
LikeReply1Aug 19, 2017 12:01pm
Will Duer · 
It's because there's too much support for them to remain. That why the other comments have been removed from the sister article.
LikeReply123 hrs
Kenneth Meiring · 
To remove statues erected by our ancestors would be extraordinary simpleminded. Such knee jerk reactions to current political hot tempers will do nothing to solve the underlying political disagreements but would loose forever historically significant works in the nations oldest city. Saint Augustine's history, like all history, is messy to say the least. But history cannot be changed and any attempt to revise it would be intellectually dishonest and would only degrade the public's already limited understanding of history.
LikeReply23 hrs
Lisa Parrish Lloyd · 
At least one of these monuments is not significant. It relates to a mercenary that followed the action. Not sure how he managed to be the one who secured internment in the plaza. There are SO many more deserving.
Reply14 hrs
David Stevenson · 
'Black people who were never slaves are fighting white people who were never Nazis over a confederate statue erected by democrats', and why, because democrats either don't know or can't stand their own history anymore, but somehow it's Trumps fault?' Insanity!
LikeReply22 hrs
Cat DuHaime · 
Works at Happily Retired
Ponce de Leon used slaves to build the first settlement here. will we have to take down all reminders of Ponce de Leon? Can't rewrite history.
LikeReply21 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
Not to mention high school named for founding murder of St. Augustine.
LikeReply3 mins
Will Duer · 
Why the conspicuous absense of the comments from the sister article printed this morning? Paper selectively censoring opinions contrary to the "new normal" or "politically correct" paradigm?
LikeReply121 hrs
Arthur Robbins · 
Take them out place them at the confederate cemetery where they belong then everyone will be happy.
LikeReply220 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
Why? Who would bear expense? And for what reason?
LikeReply3 mins
Cynthia R Hastings
It's a city monument and I hope people of the city make the discussion not outsiders. All concerning city people!!
LikeReply20 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
Under suzerainty of UF, which reports to Governor and Cabinet as Trustees of the Florida Internal Improvements Trust.
LikeReply2 mins
Debbie Burr · 
Just leave them alone I love our city and it's history
LikeReply16 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
I agree.
LikeReply2 mins
Connie Richert · 
Really, the mayor of St Augustine, the oldest city can't take a stand on this subject? These statues are part of our nation's history of course they should stay and your mayor should be ashamed for not standing up for this.
LikeReply16 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
Don't politicize something she has no jurisdiction over -- UF, Governor and Cabinet control Loring Park, not City Hall.
LikeReply1 min
Wayne McCamey Prevatt · 
Works at Self-Employed
7th generation Floridian. 14 of my Florida family served in Confederate Army. It's the history of our region, state, county, families.
LikeReply14 hrs
Sue Garofalo · 
Please leave them alone! Blacks had slaves and sold other blacks into slavery. We don't have slaves NOW! We r FREE! Enjoy your freedom & look forward to happy � times coming together as one � America under God!!
LikeReply9 hrs
Lawrence Bertolino · 
What's next, going into the cemetery and removing headstones of anyone who died pre/post/during the civil war? This nonsense is getting ridiculous. History is history. Leave it alone. Learn from it and move on.
LikeReply5 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
The Confederate veteran cenotaph or obelisk should stay. The General William Loring obelisk should stay.
The Confederate veterans' families are our friends and neighbors, just like the civil rights foot soldiers. Both are worthy of remembrance. It is our town and our time, and we're not going to haul away inoffensive monuments that honor locals who are long dead, or dig up the ashes of a dead general.
I've been reading about General William Loring this morning. Fascinating character!
General Loring was recommended by none other than one of my favorite Union Generals, William Tecumseh Sherman, to work for the Khedive of Egypt, as a General. Pasha Loring personally toured American President and former Union General U.S. Grant around Egypt.
Union and Confederate officers honored General Loring at his funeral. He was a mighty warrior, who lost an arm in the service of the U.S. Army at the battle of Chapultepec in Mexico.
This modest monument is for a deceased general who not only grew up in St. Augustine, attended Georgetown University, worked for Florida's territorial delegate to Congress, but practiced law here in St. Augustine. As a general, William Loring dared to question authority figures, including General Stonewall Jackson.
At his funeral in NYC, General Loring was honored by Union officers and enlisted men.
In death, General Loring deserves respect for his final resting place. His ashes are buried there.
Any disturbance of this legally protected grave would be a third degree felony under F.S. 872.02. Has anyone researched the law?
Lawful removal would require legal approvals under local and state laws -- that is highly unlikely, and not worth the effort.
The demand to remove General Loring's monument is misguided.
This reminds me of the time when a few angry misguided Native Americans from out of town appeared before the City Commission demanded demolition of the Castillo de San Marcos. If he were alive, my friend David Thundershield Queen, a Native American activist, would likely have opposed that suggestion.
Meanwhile, no one has called for renaming a high school named for the founding murderer of St. Augustine, or removing two statues honoring two Spanish conquistadors who practiced genocide.
Wonder why? There are more than 1500 Confederate monuments around the Nation, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. Some are deeply offensive and created to promote the "Lost Cause" heresby about slaveocracy.
Here, however, we have two monuments honoring local resident-veterans.
There is no moral equivalence to statues of murderous millionaire slave seller Nathan Bedford Forrest (who murdered African-American prisoners of war and founded the KKK).
There is no moral equivalence to cynical Supreme Court Justice Roger B. Taney, whose hateful Dred Scott decision triggered the Civil War.
This is not a fungible in-your-face cookie-cutter paen to white supremacy, like those Godawful statues (many mass-produced by New England foundries that made weapons for the Union in the Civil War).
There is already a park for Dr. Hayling, at the south end of Lincolnville -- Dr. Robert S. Hayling, D.D.S. Freedom Park.
That being said, how about, in the spirit of healing, keeping the obelisk/cenotaph. How about adding a name or two and panels with historic details to the park, as I suggested in my August 18, 2017 letter to UF President Fuchs? How about "Loring-Kennedy-Vickers Park," honoring Stetson Kennedy and Barbara Vickers, two of our most prominent local civil rights heroes/sheroes?
How about using the energy devoted to this project to work for police body cameras at the St. Johns County Sheriff's office, putting the money in the FY 2018 budget? See you at the September 5, 2017 County Budget Meeting.
How about using those energies to expose misconduct by Sheriff Shoar et pals? Justice for Michelle O'Connell!
FYI: Yes, the Record deleted ALL of the comments on the "sister story," but you can still read them on my blog. While a couple of those comments were terroriistic in nature and certainly violated TOS, there's no reason to shut down free speech, or demolish monuments in Our Nation's Oldest City.
Let's practice addition, not subtraction. In our diversity is our strength.
Let's tell our history -- all of it -- warts and all.
LikeReply4 hrsEdited
Ines Russ · 
I am a Tour Guide in St Augustine and Infeel that it would be terrible to take them down because that is part of our History here in St Augustine which it can not be change. So please leave it alone.
LikeReply4 hrs
Cecilia Graham Mallett
Removing it will not change things. This is our oldest city and we are part of every history of the past.
LikeReply2 hrs
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
I agree.
LikeReply2 mins
Alessa Adamo
NAACP, radical black activists, and sympathizes on the extreme left will not stop at demanding monuments be removed. They have found another way to exploit white guilt among weak-kneed officials willing to do anything not to be labeled as racist by these groups. Of course, it will not stop here; next we will be changing names of streets, schools, cities, and more. This is only the beginning.
LikeReply1 hr
Edward Adelbert Slavin · 
Monuments should stay where they are.
LikeReply1 min

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